Pursuing Questions
Welcome to Pursuing Questions: Imprints of inquiry, possibilities for play, and provocations for living. This is a podcast, formerly known as The Playful Podcast, is for those cultivating an ethos towards mutual flourishing, healing, learning and living well throughout the human experience; and that is the vision for this space. Guided by 5 values and 3 intentions, what might be encounter?
Intentions:
Imprints of inquiry: I wish to capture traces of my journey, because I believe it is worthy of being studied. critiqued, and expanded upon. I aim to cultivate my own awareness, reflection, and empowerment in moving my practice. What I say here is a landmark in time; not meant to be absolute truth, rather, to be interpreted within the context discussed. Podcasting is a tool for collecting and archiving pedagogical moments, thought, decisions, and practice.
Possibilities for play: I strive to expand the potential of parallel practices, by "going public" with incomplete ideas to seek feedback, to embrace questioning and being questioned, and to practice sharing knowledge generously. I believe that through knowledge sharing we are nudged towards improvising and playing with new ideas. Much of what I share is in a light-hearted spirit of saying "yes" to what is offered my way, and responding as best I can from a playful place.
Provocations for living: I take up long-term inquiries about fostering playful dispositions, pursuing human and more-than-human well-being, mutual flourishing, reflecting on practice as a facilitator, broadening relationships with knowledge, highlighting the value to revisiting experiences, playing with ideas, and unraveling pedagogy to inspect its ideals, protagonists, and assumptions. What I share is meant to be generative, to activate possibility and life itself by provoking, expanding, and spiralling that which is most compelling within a pursuit.
Values:
Curiousity: curiousity is my compass. I ask questions and work from a place of pursuing curiosity over compliance, normalcy, or or acceptance. I believe in living the questions, now.
Interconnection: Although I often prefer the term interdependence, my value of interconnection is what guides me towards pursuing connection, always, and lead through connection. I value serendipity, linking ideas, relationships, knowing that we are all connected in multitudes.
Reciprocity: I believe in sharing knowledge generously, making thinking available and accessible, and aiming to live in a world where we receive and give openly. I believe in modelling the kind of offerings I hope others to generate as well.
Wisdom: I believe in entering into embodied relationship with wisdom, as lived, rather than consuming and producing facts or information. I consider lived experience and generational knowledge to be as valued as reliable data, and as such, this podcast is not trying to elevate my work to a hard science; rather, declare its legitimacy as living wisdom and insight.
Upwards Spirals: Joy. Flow. Play. Revisiting. Repetition. Deepening. "Again"....I believe in pursuing the paths towards, and ingredients that, sustain upwards spirals of flourishing, passion, pursuit, and drive. Our nervous systems are hard-wired to detect threat and our instinct is to survive, and as a society we have put so many resources into correcting the undesirable. To compensate for some of these patterns, I believe we need intentional rituals of gratitude and generativity, and a practice of studying what "works". To do so, I believe in starting from a place of what "is," which is so often what "was" and what "will be": the patterns in our thought, behaviour, and emotion that cause us to wonder, repeat, and pursue. Noticing and attuning to our own spirals can support deepened intention, awareness, and joyful pursuit grounded in what we already know, value, and have affinity for.
Pursuing Questions
Wondering About Inclusion From One Family's Perspective, with Special Guest Sandy B.
What happens when a Human Resources manager (mom), a student teacher (middle sibling), and a grad student (eldest sibling) FaceTime for 5 minutes? Well, when it's my family, we start theorizing about inclusion. What started as a spontaneous video call, turned into a deep conversation that challenged what we thought about inclusion, and called us to rethink how we have experienced inclusion of disability. This prompted us to hit the record button to capture our wonderings, and it also prompted us to pause our conversation to include the most important perspective: Sandy. In my family, my youngest sibling, Sandy, lives with Down Syndrome, and in this episode she generously shares her ideas, opinions, and memories of attending multiple high school proms. This episode left me with more questions about inclusion and belonging, and begs for a next step in including educators' perspectives on the history of this particular example of inclusion. Just a reminder that there is a transcript of every episode available on Buzzsprout to assist in understanding what is discussed in each episode.
Kim Barton 0:00
Okay, test test, test, test.
Sandy 0:05
Test test test.
Kim Barton 0:07
Okay, now let's hear it. Dancing Queen.
Kim Barton 0:13
Mom, did you want to share anything?
Kim Barton 0:21
Welcome to the playful podcast, where we discuss lifelong learning and leisure by lingering at the intersection of recreation, education and occupation. I'm your host, Kim Barton. Welcome to the journey. I'm excited to play and learn along with you. Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode seven of the playful podcast. This episode is super fun and exciting. I get to introduce three of my family members on this episode. And I am so stoked for us to be able to share part of our experiences with a wider audience. So just to let everybody know this episode is one perspective about inclusion. And really it's not I wouldn't even call it a perspective, to be honest, it's more of a wandering conversation with some wonderings musings, realizations questions about part of some of our experiences as a family as it pertains to inclusion. And we're having this conversation. Mostly because my youngest sibling Sandy lives with Down syndrome. So our family has engaged with multiple institutions and programs and experiences that have had varying degrees of inclusion. And I guess we, we didn't really have an intention with creating this episode other than we found ourselves one day, my mom and my sibling Allison and I were just intending to have a five minute FaceTime call. And all of a sudden, we found ourselves talking about inclusion. And my mom shared her perspective. As an HR manager and a mother. Allison shared her perspective as a student teacher and as a sibling of someone with disability. I shared my perspective as an early childhood educator, and as a sibling of someone with a disability and as a grad student to. And it kind of led us to focusing on a one example of inclusion. And that is a prom that Sandy attended through her high school program, which was called a life skills program. So in this conversation, we focus on Sandy's prom experience. But just to be clear, we're not intending to actually critique this prom experience at all. We were more so using it as one example of what inclusion currently kind of looks like or feels like for individuals with disabilities.
Kim Barton 3:08
And I think we even gravitated to this example, because there's this whole analogy to, you know, I'm not going to get it right. But it's something about like inclusion is being asked to come to the dance, but belonging is being asked to dance. And I think that was eventually how we kind of literally started thinking about a dance and then prom. So I just wanted to be clear that that's kind of what the focus of this episode is. The next thing I wanted to highlight is just that, because this was a FaceTime call, the sound quality of this conversation isn't the greatest. My apologies in advance and props to you if he listened to the whole thing. Because at some point, we just kind of hit record on a phone. So the first half of this episode is that FaceTime call? But then I actually paused the conversation because we had realized that we were missing a whole perspective in this conversation. And that is Sandy's perspective. So the second half of this episode is Sandy and I engaging in a conversation about prom so that we get to hear her perspective to. Just to clarify a couple things about the life skills program. And the prom that we're talking about. This prom is a phenomenal experience for many high school students who attend it is run every year. So it's not just a prom that is attended at the final year of participating in the program. And in high school individuals can attend each year and they're invited from across the whole kind of school district. And it's not limiting individuals from participating in what I refer to as the default prom in this conversation. So my sister Sandy could attend both the life skills prom and this default quote unquote prom. Now I wasn't referring to it as the default prom because I was really trying to avoid words like typical average, normal. All stuff like that because I was trying to challenge my way of thinking about the one prom being normal, and then one prom being exceptional in some way. So then I was like, Oh, well, maybe we'd like to kind of call us each into thinking about it differently or using different language, what if I literally called one what we think of as the default, just to name it, because or that's how we think about it. And maybe there's a totally different way of thinking about it or referring to that prom, but for the sake of just my own kind of exploration about inclusion, you'll hear me talk about it like that here. My purpose of putting this episode into the universe is just to share with other adults and other educators, a little bit of insight into how different family members feel about, you know, inclusion within educational institutions, what it might look like, how we could dream differently about inclusion, you know, maybe we can think about, you know, what's inclusion gonna look like 20, 50 100 years from now, part of this whole episode is just to, you know, get us thinking differently about inclusion, and then maybe, you know, inspire somebody else in a different position to think differently about inclusion as well. So I'm excited to invite you to listen to this episode, and also let you know that there is a transcription of the episode available through Buzzsprout. And the link is in the show notes in case that helps with your understanding of what is being talked about here. And now without further ado, I'd like to introduce the voice of my sister, Alison,
Alison Barton 6:56
I don't think I have an answer. But I have a path.
Kim Barton 7:01
And then the voice of myself in this conversation,
Kim Barton 7:04
because you call to the path
Kim Barton 7:06
And the third voice that you hear one time is my mom's voice. Now take a listen and hear how we stumbled our way into chatting about inclusion.
Kim Barton 7:16
So to recap, we just were talking about the four levels of inclusion. So there's segregation, exclusion, integration and inclusion. And we had this question, how does a life skills high school life skills program fall into those categories? So we kind of went back and forth. And we're like, you know, in some ways, it depends on the individual. It could be exclusion, segregation, it could be integration, maybe parts of it are inclusive. And then we got to this point where we were just like, something like a lunch break being at different times for folks in the life skills program versus the rest of the school that segregation. And then I said, Well, oh, and the example came up with high school dance. So like, the life skills program, we know he has a dance at a different location, different time than the rest of the school. So then, I just asked right now, how do we make that default school dance event accessible and inclusive? And then Allison had an answer.
Alison Barton 8:16
I don't think I have an answer. But I have a path. And what we're learning in my program is about social, emotional, and academic inclusion. So most schools focus on the academic success and academic inclusion and making sure everyone is comfortable academically. But this program is realizing how much the social emotional aspect is related to the academic success. And when we talk about inclusion in the diversity course that I'm taking, it's, it's she, she talks about inclusion, like you said, not just as showing up or getting an invitation, but it's called meaningful inclusion. So you need to be included in a meaningful way, which will, which will hit the social, emotional and academic inclusion. So you need all of those to be used in order to be included in a meaningful way. In terms of getting there. One example that she gave us that really helped me change my thinking about how I can be inclusive, and I shared this with Mom, is that I think I might have sent her the picture. So there's a little like cartoon photo, and it shows the front of a school and the stairs are covered in snow. And there's a ramp and then there's a staircase, and there's a student in a wheelchair in front of the ramp and says, Do you mind clearing off the ramp so we can go to class And the janitor responds and says, I have to clean off the stairs. Because then all the students can get in and I'll clean off the ramp after. And the student in the wheelchair says, If you clean off the ramp, everybody can go to class. So what that helps me realize is that inclusion is beneficial to everyone. And you don't always know who needs the, what's the word?
Kim Barton 10:32
Like the different like alternative path, almost like Yeah, cuz you call to the past. And then this is like literally a path, right? Like stairs versus ramp. Yeah. And it's like, the ramp is actually, I'm probably generalizing, but for most people, that's a very accessible way to get to a location, no matter if you are using a wheelchair, or if you are walking, or if you like to hop or if you are temporarily using crutches. So we need to be thinking about how can the default these a ramp? Not the stairs, I guess?
Alison Barton 11:06
Yes. And it's an option for everyone. So, you know, there's a range of students, students who don't need it at all, and the students who absolutely need it, and everybody falls in between and as long as it's there and accessible for everyone, then we all benefit really.
Kim Barton 11:25
Yeah. And like, it's making me think of back to the dance example, we know what a life skills prom looks like. And we know what the default prom looks like, too. So like, what is I don't know what the ramp is the dance case, but like I'm imagining it's like, and it's different. To me, this is like a social emotional thing. I'm trying to think past the physical accessibility is my point right now. Because I think I think a lot of times the ramp, and wheelchair accessibility is like the first way that we think about inclusion. So I'm just like, wondering what, how you translate this ramp example to something social, emotional, or like neurodivergent related kind of
Alison Barton 12:10
That's a good question. And every time I come across this stuff, I feel like I don't have I don't have answers. And that's also kind of the point of my learning in this program is that it's not about having answers, but it's about being able to find answers. So oh, it 100% It's about that. So meaningful inclusion socially and emotionally.
Kim Barton 12:38
We don't Yeah, I like to deal with maybe like, we don't have the answer. I don't think I could spend the rest of my life trying to find an answer to this. And it still wouldn't be applicable in every situation, because it's these things were like so contextual, probably. But I don't know. It's, that's probably just a nice thing to open up for conversation. I guess, for anybody who's wondering similar things.
Alison Barton 13:04
I do have a thought about the dance analogy. So in terms of the dance, I was, as you were talking, I was thinking that, you know, maybe it was a good thing that they had a separate dance, because then some of the needs can be met one, you know, students who don't want to be overstimulated or need the music quieter, right there, those needs can be met in in their sep- they're excluded or segregated dance. But then their social emotional needs may not be met, if they want to be meaningfully included with the rest of the school. So I think that, you know, I think there's a big difference between you know, them being at the dance with the rest of the school.
Kim Barton 13:56
Physically,
Alison Barton 13:58
physically. Versus Yeah, sorry. Stop interrupting. Well, you know, I don't really know where this thought is going. I just started it. So you if you have ideas, please add to it.
Kim Barton 14:13
I think I'm just like wondering similar things. And if I think about the folks I know who loves the life skills program, prom, or dance. I don't know how to make that. The default. I can think about reverse integration, I think was what it was called, like, you could extend extend the invite beyond life skills program that's maybe at one step. But then like, I don't know, like, I feel like this is where the complexity of this topic comes in. Because part of it being accessible is probably a smaller amount of people. And like, yeah, it being like less overwhelming and knowing that group of people to you can include specific things. things that, you know, are interesting. Like, they probably always play that song that Sandy likes ... Roar.
Alison Barton 15:05
Yeah,
Kim Barton 15:06
right. Like, that's probably a guaranteed thing, which technically, that could happen at the default dance as well, I keep calling it the default, I don't know what to call it. The more I'm thinking about it, I'm realizing like the pros of the life skills problem. So I'm stuck, it'd be, it'd be nice to talk to somebody else who's, you know, also thought about these things, and can think about the pros and cons beyond.
Alison Barton 15:36
This kind of goes back to your physical inclusion part, but we spent a little bit of time in class talking about having an option, right, which can be an invitation, but it's also voice and choice, right. So, you know, I'm thinking, like you said, maybe the smaller dances are better for and like we said, maybe that can be better for people who aren't in the life skills program as well. And throwing this out there as an idea, what if there were, there were like four prom dances, and you could like have a sign up sheet. So you and your friends can go to prom, A, B, C, or D. Wow.
Kim Barton 16:26
Is like really interesting to consider.
Alison Barton 16:29
And there could be like themes or something like, or not themes, but just a bit of information like this one is going to have lights off, this one is going to have lights on. I don't know, this one is going to be casual, whatever kind of themes or maybe the group that signs up for prom can decide how they want the prompt to look. Voice and Choice, right have an input.
Kim Barton 16:55
I love that idea of like having instead of two, we could have four, like instead of default and lifeskills we could actually have four proms like Yeah.
Alison Barton 17:06
And then they're, like, instead of this being the life skills problem, there are just four regular problems. And they are four choices. four choices. That's all we know. Yeah,
Kim Barton 17:20
like, yeah. Oh, wow. I really like that. I wonder if any school is doing that. If anyone's like, I don't know. I'd love to like open this up to other people. Like if people are listening and they like I don't know, have if they've gone through the same like process in their head or like they know a school that's trying something different they should definitely hit us up on Instagram or something
Mom 17:49
and I think a really good perspective would be from teachers and EAS and other staff who have been working in this field for many years because when I think about the life skills prom, I'm sure that that evolved
Kim Barton 18:13
and that was my cue to go chat with Sandy because we got to a point in the conversation where we needed other perspectives. So this next segment here is Sandy and I talking about Sandy's experience at the life skills problem.
Sandy 18:31
Yeah My name is Sandy my my my favorite thing myself is sometimes singing and dancing and maybe maybe maybe maybe like to do my my music a lot. Am I knew hammock
Kim Barton 19:19
what's our relationship are we friends?
Sandy 19:26
Yeah. First Family,
Kim Barton 19:27
friends and family. You often say that I'm two things.
Sandy 19:34
Well, um, well her name is Kim is my best friend and sister.
Kim Barton 19:41
You got it
Sandy 19:45
Yes, I do I got it now.
Kim Barton 19:51
Okay, welcome Sandy to the playful podcast. My first question before we start is are you comfortable with me recording this conversation and putting it on Spotify.
Sandy 20:04
Yes, I do.
Kim Barton 20:07
Okay, great. Before we started recording I was telling you that I was interested to get your perspective on the prom that you go to with your old high school. So maybe can you explain to people listening to this podcast, what does your prom look like? Remember all those years that you went to...?
Sandy 20:32
hmmm
Kim Barton 20:34
No pressure.
Sandy 20:36
Yeah. I'm just gonna pause... to say...
Kim Barton 20:43
maybe you can start with like, why don't you explain what happens at the house before you go to a prom? Remember all those thing - all the steps you go through?
Sandy 20:54
Yes, yeah. Yes, I do. First is a fancy dress. Yeah, yes. First. Yeah. I do like makeup sometimes? Just on my cheeks.
Kim Barton 21:15
Yeah, just on your cheeks
Sandy 21:16
Yeah. It is okay to still saying prom? Okay. Well, I do like tdancing, dacing at poem.
Kim Barton 21:30
You like dancing at the prom?
Sandy 21:33
So prom is smae place I went to um, it's big um DJ kind of thing
Kim Barton 21:44
It's like a big building with a DJ sometimes. Yeah, there's different places. It's been that sometimes different places. It's been at some times a hotel one time. One time it was at a club kind of place downtown. And sometimes before you go to prom, me take some pictures on our lawn. Tell us about the taking pictures. Who gets to take pictures with you?
Sandy 22:19
Well, my guess is teachers. Our family? Yeah. And our friends too.
Kim Barton 22:30
Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes you can take pictures with family, friends. Teachers. When you go to prom, like when you step inside the prom place. What does it look like? What are all the different things you get to do? I don't even remember
Sandy 22:51
There is, well, the thing, there is food there. Yeah, food gthere, dinner there, dancing thing. Um, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes is I dunno what to call it surprising thing
Kim Barton 23:22
sometimes there's surprises? What's your favorite part of prom? What's the what's the best part for you?
Sandy 23:29
Um, well, my favorite prom at the same place twe went to, well, taking a photo at the photo booth thing. yeah.
Kim Barton 23:47
like taking photos. Like taking photos at the photo booth. I have to ask you about dancing because I happen to know that you like dancing what's your favorite song to dance to at prom?
Sandy 24:03
Well, my favorite dancing to is Roar by Katy Perry. And, and, and What Makes You Beautiful by by one one, by One Direction
Kim Barton 24:25
Yeah, and I happen to know that you have choreographed dances to both Roar and What Makes You Beautiful. And I'm curious to know if when you're at prom, do other people follow you? Your lead when you do those dance moves?
Sandy 24:45
I don't think so. I learned it from my old school, Frosty Assembly. yeah.
Kim Barton 24:59
Oh, Yeah, so you learn the dance moves at for an assembly for like what do they call that? Even? It's kind of like a talent show I guess I don't know. Everybody gets to go up on stage and do
Sandy 25:15
It is life skills program
Kim Barton 25:21
The life skills program Oh for frosty Life Skills Program does a they do the dance
Kim Barton 25:34
I'm curious how it feels when you're up on stage with everybody in the life skills program doing that dance. Can you tell me what what does it like feel like in your body when you were like, I forget the moves like dancing queen, young and free. Only 17....
Sandy 25:55
I think I feel like I'm feeling proud of myself that way. Proud and feeling great. And then sometimes, I forget the moves, sometimes
Kim Barton 26:20
Yeah, sometimes it I think I do that to forget the moves if I'm on stage or something. What happens when you forget the moves?
Sandy 26:30
Um wihtout the moves um I can do uh, make something up or something? I dunno
Kim Barton 26:39
Yeah, totally. Um, okay, that was cool. I'm also curious. So if we think back to prom, I know you haven't been there in like, two years or one year or something. Actually, why don't we talk about prom last year in 2020 during the pandemic, because that prom was different eh? Can you explain how you did prom during the pandemic?
Sandy 27:08
During my pandemic I dunno what the place is called. Oh, I did do my own graduation and my prom downstairs just on zoom
Kim Barton 27:42
Yeah, downstairs on zoom at our house. Yeah,
Sandy 27:45
yeah. Well, I think I feel like somewhere in the room is possibly just our parents.
Kim Barton 27:57
Really in the room?
Sandy 27:59
Well, well, sometimes I'm okay with just other stuff, I think.
Kim Barton 28:08
Yeah, I think they're like doing other stuff. Maybe. What were your friends doing?
Sandy 28:14
Well, my friends doing just dancing just on Zoom. Yeah.
Kim Barton 28:23
And what were your teachers doing?
Sandy 28:26
Family thing um dancing.
Kim Barton 28:30
Dancing on Zoom. Did you like that prom?
Sandy 28:37
I love, well I always love prom a lot
Kim Barton 28:42
you always love prom a lot. If you could make prom better what would you do?
Sandy 28:52
I do better, whatever I name it
Kim Barton 29:07
you're gonna name it something? Um, who would be invited to the prom that you not just like as a date, but like who would you invite to go? Who would get to go?
Sandy 29:22
Um to go is... just my guess... maybe my...I would say my friends and my other workers too yeah.
Kim Barton 29:43
Yeah. So friends. Workers, would you I'm curious if would you invite the whole life skills program again? Or would you do it differently?
Sandy 29:55
I could do that. I would say other friends then, I don't even know who the friends are
Kim Barton 30:05
I know it's so funny since school ended like who? who our friends are from school? It's hard to know what the pandemic I'm in this pretend prom? Would you invite people outside of the lights Life Skills Program? Like other people who went to your high school
Sandy 30:26
well I could... I could um... I could do it outside... just other people around...
Kim Barton 30:46
Do you think it would make prom different if people outside of the life skills program went to your prom?
Sandy 30:56
Well, staying far apart because COVID
Kim Barton 31:02
Oh, yeah. Okay, so let's pretend it's like COVID over or something like that. What do you think it would feel like
Sandy 31:10
I could try something new.... I could try something new like new life skills then. I never had new life skills program yet. Um, well, jsut saying, just pretend to be outside. Finsihed COVID... Well my favourite thing is um outside food and dancing stuff like this
Kim Barton 32:01
outside food and dancing. Cool, cool. Cool. And do you remember how many proms you went to?
Sandy 32:09
How my proms it is? It's 5 years I think. I would say 6 proms.
Kim Barton 32:21
Wow. Because in the life skills program, they do prom every year.
Sandy 32:28
I think it's 10
Kim Barton 32:30
10? Yeah, I don't know either.
Sandy 32:36
I do like prom since long time because sometimes I don't like prom it's hard to tell I don't like prom very much. I am I am biggest fans of proms a lot.
Kim Barton 33:07
You're the biggest fan of prom. But you said sometimes you don't like prom. Do you?
Sandy 33:15
Sometimes
Kim Barton 33:15
Sometimes why? Sometimes do not like prom?
Sandy 33:24
I do like dancing a lot but because because I know most of the songs very well. I do like every type, I do like every type of music a lot. Just like Rap, and country and something like that
Kim Barton 34:02
Yeah, you like the dancing part and all the different music that they play I guess. Right on. Any other thoughts that you want to share about prom or stuff like that?
Sandy 34:20
Well, I will say done for now.
Kim Barton 34:24
Done for now. Okay, thanks so much Sandy. Do you have anything else you want to share? Like a joke or like a funny way to finish our conversation? If not, it's okay.
Sandy 34:38
Knock knock.
Kim Barton 34:40
Who's there?
Sandy 34:40
Baoo
Kim Barton 34:43
boohoo
Sandy 34:45
moooo
Kim Barton 34:49
You're kind of funny. Okay, thank you.
Kim Barton 34:54
I just wanted to say thank you so much to Sandy for being willing to share her experience on this episode. I'm so grateful for you talking with me and using my microphone to try to record this conversation outside socially distanced during the pandemic. And thank you so much for Alison for being willing to just press record in this episode and for my mom. Even though you don't hear much of my mom you she's she's woven into this whole conversation and involved in a lot of the background decisions for this episode. And as always, if you have more questions from this episode, as I hope you, you do, or if you have your own perspective to share stories, comments, things like that, please do feel free to reach out to me. You can find me on Instagram at playful pedagogies you can find me also on Facebook and Twitter with the same handle. You can find me at playful pedagogies.ca And I look forward to connecting and being invited into other perspectives on this topic of inclusion. Thanks so much everybody. Stay playful
Transcribed by https://otter.ai