Glorified Babysitting

In this solo episode I reflect on the fight that ECEs are in to professionalize our work and gain respect by leveraging away from being considered as glorified babysitters. I wander through wonderings about different types of care and education across time, space, and cultures, and ask questions that feel unsettling to my own identity as an ECE. Note: this episode was recorded at the beginning of Sept 2021.

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Welcome to the playful Podcast, where we discuss lifelong learning and leisure by lingering at the intersection of recreation, education and occupation. I'm your host, Kim Barton. Welcome to the journey. I'm excited to play and learn along with you. 

Like I said, my name is Kim, my pronouns are she her. Just a reminder that in this podcast, we aim to honour many ways of knowing, being and doing when we listen to and lead from many sources of wisdom. We share ideas liberally and actively experiment with knowledge in generative conversation, rejuvenating reflection, and even at times some invigorating improvisation. So in that way, this podcast will likely morph and evolve over time, which I am so excited to embark on a journey towards. So today, we're going to be talking a little bit about the fight that he sees have been in to not be considered glorified babysitters, and chatting a little bit also about what it means to provide care as he sees. And I'm going to start us off with a bit of a reflection about what has happened over the past few months regarding indigenous communities, and just some of the learnings that I've been having having. And I'm definitely not an expert on this. And I always welcome feedback. And if you are an expert on this, I would love to have you on this podcast. So let me know. So the first thing I want to bring up is to reflect upon how, at this point in time, there have been over 5000 children's bodies that have been confirmed as being buried in mass grave sites across Turtle Island. Now, this is a huge number of children. This is just the number that have been confirmed. What I'm hearing is that there are many, many children who never made it home across Turtle Island, due to the residential school system. And not only that, but there's actually so much ongoing colonial violence that has existed since the closure of residential schools through the child welfare system, and the systemic factors that really have suppressed indigenous culture, and language revitalization. So I want to share some quick facts that I looked up about the residential schools. So this is from the reconciliation Canada website. And I just learned that the number of children taken from families is 150,000. And that number in and of itself is just like in fashionable to me. But it's also that it's not just children who are affected by residential schools. Clearly, it's, you know, the number of families so 150,000 families. And so how many mothers and fathers is that? Sorry, how many parents is that? How many aunties is that how many grandparents is that? So that number really is far larger than just those six figures. The next fact I wanted to highlight is that, unfortunately, 90 to 100% of children who were forced into residential schools suffered severe physical, emotional and sexual abuse. This is something that I've learned about when showing up at community events and listening to elders share their story, and listen to youth share their reflections on what it has meant to have a family member who injured the residential school system. And the kinds of stories that exist out there really demonstrate the very serious generational harm that has occurred across indigenous communities across Turtle Island. Another unfortunate fact is that the mortality rate in residential schools was 40 to 60%. So now we're starting to see, we know that we're going to find many more. But we also know that many probably aren't buried in these mass graves and not laid to rest in any respectful way. Of course, in Canada, we know that the last residential school closed in 1996 and the first residential schools date back to the 1870s which is a horrifying long time for the federal government to have been operating this colonial system. And also it this length of time shows that people like me who are really coming into this awareness in my later 20s just like how hidden something like this was, and how not
Well talked about or it was and how poorly educated white settlers like myself are to this kind of truth. And from my understanding to like when and if residential schools were spoken about, survivors just really weren't believed for a very long time. And so that leads me to this last fact, I'm going to read this one verbatim. So two thirds of Canadians believe, and foreign 10 strongly believe that Canadians with no experience in Indian residential schools have a role to play in reconciliation between indigenous peoples and all Canadians. I don't even know if I can unpack what that means. But what I'm going to highlight is that within the 94, calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, you see ease or call to action, through our curriculum and through the ways that we serve and interact with indigenous families. And we have a federal, indigenous earliest framework to work from So, so many people aren't yet aware of their responsibility within reconciliation. So I'm going to just prompt, prompt you to keep having those conversations, consider what our entry point into reconciliation is, which is often truth telling, or sometimes it's thinking about maybe the colonial history of a particular hobby that we have, like from from my family thinking about canoeing and what that has meant, at the intersection of colonial violence and the intersection of reconciliation. Actually, I just found out that there's a two row I always get the name wrong. to row paddle, I think of the Grand which is such an embodiment of the two row wampum. Something else that has been brought into my awareness is that the residential schools were overseen federally. And in the 60s, that responsibility transferred to the provinces. And this was something that I learned from showing up at a community march on July 1, and hearing a local indigenous activists really share their perspective. And so what this activists shared was, when that responsibility occurred, the provinces then realised the same sort of outcomes through the 60 scoop where children were taken away from their families and placed in foster care, that foster care system not only removed children from access to their culture, but also had some, some very real intergenerational effects the same way that the residential school system had. And so really, this was just a huge example of how Canada and colonisation really tried to eradicate indigenous groups across Turtle Island.
Now, the key word here that I want to highlight is tried, they tried to eradicate entire populations. And folks wouldn't be sharing their story and reconnecting to culture to language to spirit. You know, if it was successful, we wouldn't see the indigenisation of spaces in places, I'm just sort of trying to, you know, focus the lens towards reconciliation when I can. So a hopeful little tidbit to end upon here is that according to stats Canada, indigenous populations across Turtle Island grew 42.5%, between 2006 and 2016, which by the way, is 10.9%, higher than non indigenous populations. And that fact actually comes from an indigenous author at my university, Dr. Kim Anderson and co author just cut ball in a chapter that's called First Nations and maytee families, which I will link in the show notes. So one thing is clear to me, and that is that indigeneity isn't going anywhere. And it's only getting stronger despite the colonial violence. And with that, I wanted to kind of highlight the structures and systems that I've kind of been alluding to. So living in Canada means that there is no universal income. There is little structure to support our health care as we age. And it means that early learning and childcare is rendered to a market driven service reliant on parent fees. It's very poorly funded. educators and childcare providers aren't paid well. And there has been an ongoing fight for accessibility to childcare spaces for families across I was gonna say across Canada, but my I'm going to try saying across Turtle Island instead. So clearly, society has already decided who gets cared for and who does not. End You know, for example, those with money can buy care. Historically indigenous communities as we know, not only were not cared for, but were abused. And you know, there's ongoing evidence of environmental racism and very, like limited access to care. You know, there's a whole, I'm not an expert on any of these topics. I'm just sort of trying to illuminate things that I've learned. But another thing to think about here is like medical care, and the intersection of women, and blackness and medical experiments that have taken place. So like, for example, the racial and gendered treatment of people in psychiatric care, who gets psychiatrist who gets deemed to be mad, who gets to access, psychiatric care, to kind of like elevate their life. And also the history of hysterectomy ins and gynaecological association that was not accurate, that deemed women to be irrational. 

So while we're thinking about this, let's reflect a little bit about how self care became popularized with the Black Panthers merely out of survival. So I'll link a couple articles in the show notes here, because again, not something I'm an expert on. And so we can contrast this sort of self care as something that is provided on a peer to peer basis, you know, as a means to merely get, you know, very minimal access to healthcare or, you know, like wound treatment, things like that.
versus how self care is used today, which one look on social media tells us that like hundreds of 1000s of hashtag self care posts exists, which are mostly centred on self care, kind of as like a privilege or a self indulgence. And so now is probably a really good time to remind us of the Audrey Lorde quote, which is caring for myself is not self indulgence. It is self preservation. And that is an act of political warfare. That quote is such an essential piece of the conversation around care, which, and I'm bringing this up, because within working in the early learning and childcare sector, sometimes there is this divide between, or a perceived divide, at least between education and care. So I'm taking a note from Carol Gar, Bowden Murray, the author of illuminating care, the pedagogy and practice of care in early childhood communities. So if you're interested in the topic of care, as I move through this episode, definitely check out Carol's book or Facebook page, at least I can link all of that in the show notes. So another thing I want to highlight here is that sometimes when we think of self care, we forget to think about how it can be used in a very, like monotonous and boring way. And there's actually a hashtag on social media called boring self care. And it talks about, you know, the basic tasks we engage in, to enhance our well being and health as humans. And I've also seen some conversations online about you know, types of self care being like emotional self care, practical, physical, where you might, you know, engage in movement, mental, you might engage in reading a book or journaling, social, or professional, like setting some boundaries around work and home life. Which recently, by the way, I heard someone call life work balance, instead of work life balance, just to kind of challenge like, which one comes first, I thought that was pretty clever. Anyway, so I've kind of gone on tangent, but I aimed to start this conversation out by talking about structural care and who society is cared for. And then talking a little bit about community care, which is something that is pretty new concept to me. But something that I've really been reflecting on a lot in the past year or so. And I think it came into my awareness in conversations around the pandemic, and also, you know, in the spaces that I sort of occupy online, and this sort of movement away from care as something that you know, kind of reinforces independence or self reliance or this very, like individualistic culture that we live in, in western civilization, and moving more towards, you know, really embodying community and community being a verb and community being something that we we inherently do. And you know, I think actually, this nicely connects to some of the research articles I've been reading around feminist ethics of care, so I'll link that in my show notes as well. But feminist ethics of care some authors use This to do some analyses in early learning and childcare. And what's been illuminated in some of those writings, especially think by Rachel Langford. And who's the other one, I'm thinking of Rachel Langford and Atlanta Powell is a CEO, at some of their work has talked about, you know, how care how being dependent on people is an inherent part of the human condition. And instead of us thinking, as, you know, being reliant on somebody else for care, being something that makes us, you know, flawed or somehow a lesser, I don't know, value, I guess, in society is really, completely missing the point of like, what it means to experience humanity and kind of Rue prioritises care, as something that actually is so vital to who we are, and is, you know, something to be celebrated as being knighted. And,
you know, not just like, not just something that this is a history of, of care, is just so unfortunate. So, actually, yeah, maybe this is a good time to bring in. So the reason I wanted to do an episode on care and get into glorified babysitting is because I just listened to an episode of a podcast that I'm obsessed with called call your girlfriend, and Amina and, and talked about domestic work. And I wish I could remember the name of the person that they interviewed. But I'm going to link that episode in my show notes. And it really just talks about like, sort of the history of care work and work that involves domestic life, and talks about, you know, who provides care and who receives that care. And there's obviously a racialized and gendered component to providing domestic work. And, you know, I'm hoping to really just continue to learn and reflect upon what it means to be somebody who does provide care, but also somebody who receives care. And, you know, reflecting on how we live in a culture that has really forgotten about how provide giving and receiving care are so inherent to not just being human, but to like living in societies living in communities. So this makes me think of some of the reflections I've had on something that I'm going to refer to as systems of interdependence. This is like, not my wording, not my, I'm not like, you know, I don't take credit for this. It comes up in many places and spaces, it was kind of drawn into my awareness during a professional learning opportunity, where we were talking about the book braiding sweetgrass, which if you haven't listened to my first episode, you probably should, because you'll understand why I'm so obsessed with that book. And when we were talking about it, I kept referring to referring to, you know, this kind of sense of entanglement as being a system of inter connection. And I kept saying, interconnection, yeah, everything's connected everything, you know, the forests, mushrooms, trees, ecosystems, communities, culture, humans. And then somebody was like, hey, like, you know, gently nudge the conversation in with like, what if we start saying interdependence, not just interconnection, because it's not just that we're connected, it's that we're actually all dependent on each other. And this extending to non human beings as well, plants, animals, water, land, etc. So that's just something I'm like, really excited about thinking about, and I tease it apart all the time. I'm gonna link in my show notes to actually have an Instagram post where I talk about this. And I talk about how we're kind of like, suspended in these invisible webs of like systems of interdependence. And actually, the web thing kind of reminds me again of another call your girlfriend episode where I mean and talk about this lady web, I think they have another word for it. But basically, they came across this tool where you can kind of map all your email connections, and it will show you how you're connected to each other, over space and time. And I just love this because so rarely do we have documentation of the kinds of community that we're in connection with, beyond family trees, we don't really have yet established and this is, you know, very much clerical friend, but we don't yet have this established system of recognising friendships and recognising neighbourhoods and communities that really so Support us and allow us to shine shout out shine theory. You know, we kind of, we don't yet have a way to recognise non familiar relationships and the kind of, you know, all our relations that we're in connection with, and that are dependent on and who are dependent on us.
This is gonna bring me to another braiding sweetgrass quote. So I don't think I've shared this yet, but I'm gonna probably share it a million times because it is. So it is such a good summary of not only that book, and Dr. Wall cameras, I think like some of the larger sort of ideas that they're offering. But, but also, as I'll say, kind of like a political move. So the quote says, through unity, survival, all flourishing is mutual. So the first part of this through unity survival is not just a fact of like forest life, or like, you know, Garden, habitats and ecosystems. But this is such a political statement to me. So again, it speaks to this question of who has society cared for, who has had to unite to simply survive? And what if we all united to survive global crises, and to recover, to work towards reconciliation and to heal each other's communities that we've done damage to the second part about all flourishing being mutual? What an intersectional feminist mantra. So very shine theory and also also as simple as putting like houseplants together so that they create a little humidity ecosystem, which is something I'm still learning about. I'm trying not to kill my houseplants over here. Okay, so my final Case in point about systems of interdependence, comes from a wonderful book that I am also probably going to cite a million more times, called how we show up, and it's by Mia birdsong. And so this quote gets me in the fields. It says, my understanding of care, care for myself and care for others has become void of the binary framing of this or that input and output, suddenly care for others is care for myself. Care for myself, is care for others. And then I'll skip ahead just to another line that I really like, which says, this collective care creates an anchor from which I then practice self care to effectively care for myself. All Oh, I honestly don't even know how to unravel this quote. This idea of dependence being framed in us in this interlocking and complex way, is just so beautiful, so succinct, and really reminds us that, you know, care is not just this transaction of giving and taking, caregiving care, taking care receiving. And it's not just like binary interactions. And I like to think of this actually, as our work assuming that you're an educator, our work as educators, because, you know, so often we are talking about how we're constantly providing care. And that's true, we are always providing care, care to the children that we're working with care to their families, and probably care to our own families as well. But like, let's also think about all the care that we get from that work. So without providing care for children, we wouldn't be getting financial care that comes with it. I'll be a it's not where we would like it to be, but it does provide us with financial care. Also, how often do children care for us? How often does a child run up to you with, like, you know, a pretend band aid or a cupcake and, or like a cup of tea and want you to be cared for. We are nurtured, you know, physically and soulfully by the children that we're in relationship with. And also we're so cared for by families, the amount of love and appreciation I've received from families just is, you know, it just touches my heart so much. And it's just, you know, something that we often kind of forget in this conversation when we're, when we sort of frame it as like, Oh, I'm a care provider. So, you know, care providers have to engage in so much more self care because we're constantly giving and not receiving and I just like, the next part of this podcast is just going to challenge that just a little bit. And the main The way we're really going to do this is just by asking, why have ECS leverage so far away from babysitters? What?
Is it against? babysitting? If you have an answer, like this is a genuine question, what has what has propelled you to, you know, join that narrative of, we're not glorified babysitters, we are professionals, I can share for myself that, you know, I was a babysitter from literally, I think it's like 12 years old that you can babysit. I was a babysitter from that age and onward. And I have babysat well into my late 20s. And oftentimes, when I'm in a babysitting role, I feel like I'm entertaining. And I feel like I'm supervising and I feel like I'm, you know, not having to me to standard, I guess, and I've really kind of not highlighted all the other things that I was doing when I was babysitting, you know, like I kept I've literally eliminated babysitting for my resume. I could put, I could put on there probably almost 20 years of babysitting. Not quite, but I'm like 20 years of experience in something holy, like, does that not make you somebody with so much lived experience so much like time and refined expertise? You know, like, we really downplay babysitting. And we also really downplay like, Rec and leisure. Oh, my goodness, I like, I wish I could pause the conversation that's happening right now that I'm hearing at least from sort of, you know, the EC ease that I'm in connection with, because in Ontario, there was a change so that individuals who have a background in Rec and leisure can work in before and after school programmes, and they don't have to have training as early childhood educators. And yet, the expectation for before and after school programmes is to still meet the How does learning happen? emergent curriculum and play based, play based pedagogy. So we're at an interesting crossroads, because I'm curious to know, I don't yet know this, but like, what, what do recommend your folks bring to before and after school programmes? What do they bring to? You know, the experience of caring for children, and what Rec and leisure bring to play? What do they bring to? What do they bring to pedagogy? What do they bring to the table that Eazy E's have overshadowed because we've been constantly leveraging away from informal care or you know, something that isn't as educational? These are genuine questions. So like I said, in my first podcast, I am really hoping to chat with people outside of the AEC profession. So I haven't yet connected to anybody who's working in Rec and leisure. So if you're listening to this, and you're in Rec and leisure, and you want to be you want to collab with me, please let me know. To take us a step further into this sort of contemplation about babysitting. I'm going to read a quotation by Carol, I don't know if this is a quotation from the book or if this is something that was just posted on Facebook, but oh my gosh, I have come back to this quote so many times. So it says, I have stopped saying we are not babysitters to defend our profession. I understand the sentiment and of course, we are teachers, not babysitters. But we have been repeating the slogan for years and it hasn't worked in our favour. Instead, it has contributed to the split between education and care that places care subordinate, I would rather join forces with babysitters, cousins, grandparents, neighbours, and all caregivers that support children, and they recognise our common goal. I want to uplift care. I want to unite care and education. I want to be a care mentor. every profession has entry level. And babysitting is often an entry for people to learn about child development and support family life. babysitting is important work and I want to honour all labour. Oh, another good quote that like I really don't have the words to say it any better myself. This just resonates with me so deeply. And probably because of my you know, many years of experience working with children and also because I only became registered as an EC in 2020.
You know, so much of that is from babysitting and from more Formal care arrangements. I also spent many years providing respite care for families. I was a private nanny for a year. And I worked in summer camp and in recreational programmes for many, many years. And, you know, like I, like I said, I just, I never really took it seriously until I stumbled into an outdoor education programme. We all know I'm obsessed with outdoor education. And it was my entry into emerging curriculum, which is why I literally chose to become an ISI. As much as we've moved to professionalise the field of early learning and childcare, I want to join forces, like Carol said, with all of the community members out there just providing care services that so many people so desperately need, while they're trying their best to just live their lives and engage with their children, we actually don't have to look far to be reminded of this, even within our training as educators, we're often trained on bronfenbrenner, his bio ecological model, which really represents all of the sort of beings and systems that a single child is in relationship with, and all the different systemic factors that that influence children's experiences in their early years, but also like, you know, this translates to just anybody, I am at the centre of my own bio ecological model. And I am in relationship with so many individuals and beings, some of it being extremely informal, and some of it being very formal, like through post secondary institutions. So I just I'm, I guess I'm just sharing this because like, I'm just sort of navigating this journey myself. And I'm just, you know, inviting other people into the conversation, making my own learning visible, and trying my best to amplify voices who are knowledgeable in this. So babysitters and other caregivers really do provide an essential service. And they they fill a gap in society, we don't have the we don't all have the Community Care some of us do. Some of us have family and neighbours to care for children, but many people don't. And so it fills a gap in also structural care, because like I said, with the market based model of early learning and childcare, we don't have spaces available for families, we don't have accessible affordable childcare for families. And we also have a very patchwork system that has quite a large range in quality, which is kind of, you know, quality's kind of a touchy subject if we're going to be talking about informal care. But I think it's something that's important to raise, because in the conversations about quality, it kind of asks, you know, who is providing care? And how much training do they have? And what do their interactions look like? What are the materials like, what's the environment like? And those are all important questions. But I think there's some other more important questions to be asking here. So relational and collaborative childcare, means that educators are skillfully extending children's interests and abilities by integrating larger life skills into children's play experiences. And now that can happen through emerging curriculum and formal early learning. And you know, what we can have all these theories about educators acting as you know, co learners and active partners in play, and researchers even to you know, support children's inquiry and investigation skills, which are skills that, you know, arguably can go far beyond learning specific developmental or academic tasks in the kind of school defying of early learning. And they can speak to these larger concepts of like critical thinking and being accountable and having empathy in life. But also, you know, it's not just skilled, you know, trained educators who do this kind of extending of children's learning and mentorship. This happens naturally in many cultures across the globe. And it's actually looping back to, you know, colonialism that has determined that it has to be through a specific programme, that children get these kind of quality experiences. I'm not an expert on this. So this is just kind of an introductory, thinking about this topic, but but really, what I'm getting at here is that it's not a new concept to be providing care for children outside of it being a parental arrangement.
And, you know, like, there's this kind of convoluted conversation around like, you know, it for a long time, it's been considered that the next best thing to care from a mother is a care by a very like similar figure. Who is often like a, a woman, and sometimes a white woman, but in reality care for women who are engaging in work, for example, has been provided by black women or women of colour. You know, just to sort of I'm like pondering this, it's making me think about, again, who is providing the care for who and also what other cultures have done. So this is like a huge overgeneralization. I know that I probably should have done a lot more research. But in cultures around the world, children are mentored by the society that they live within, there hasn't had to, there hasn't had to be this, like, colonial system that's come into place that says, like, this is how we should systematically change train children. And instead, very thoughtful and meaningful. And culturally, like culturally responsive relational. Support and mentorship for children has come from aunties and grandparents, and, you know, neighbours, that kind of saying it takes a village is, I guess, like, kind of what this speaks to and the element of community care that exists in places beyond Western civilization. So just to bring this full circle, let's just reflect a little bit on that book chapter I talked about from Dr. Kim Anderson. So in this chapter, they the author's kind of talk a little bit about how children are at the centre of I guess, I think I'll just read a quote. So they are referring to another educator, but they talk about how the mass removal of children from indigenous communities was akin to gripping the heart and centre out of indigenous worlds. Once the heart was taken, everything else began to fall away. Elders lost the children they had been responsible to teach. Women lost the children they had cared for, and men lost the children they had productive, protected and provided for. This created the conditions for an unravelling of family relations the communities struggle with to this day. I wanted to just kind of come back to this because I guess I want to imagine as an educator, without feeling threatened, what would my career look like? If colonisation didn't dictate that? We needed? I guess it's colonisation and the patriarchy? No, it's colonisation, the patriarchy and capitalism and so many other isms that exist but you know, all those things that dictate that people need to work. And if you don't work, you're somehow of lesser value to society. And that in order to engage in work, but also reproduce humans, you need to find ways to get childcare and because we are living in this very like divided culture, you know, that care, it's like shameful somehow to get that care from a neighbour or from an aunt, or a family member and have it not be formalised, or, you know, it's kind of strange, actually, because it's like, if women stay home, I'm generalising here, but if a parent stays home to care for their child, in some ways, that's considered like a privilege because then only one or the other person is working probably. But it's also considered a privilege to be able to afford childcare and early learning to then go and participate in the workforce. So props to you if you followed me throughout this podcast because it's been a little windy and not a lot of like, clear, coherent thought, and not a lot of expertise on my part, because I'm really just highlighting a lot of quotations that other people have said, and my reflections on them so Oh, I forgot one final reflection on this idea of like, you know, what, what's my role as an EC if, if, if, you know, there was more structural care that existed for families and society, it makes me think about you know, why I chose to be an EC there's a cool hashtag going around right now. I think it's called I chose preschool. I'll link it in the show notes. And it is basically about just like Eazy E's, sharing their story of why they chose to be an EC over and above like, you know, just falling into the sector because I think oftentimes there's unfortunately this narrative that he sees sort of like fell into the role or you know, they engage in this work because they like
were gate kept from getting it. into being a school aged teacher, which I like thoroughly through all of my being like really just like that narrative. And like I have really tried to embody changing that narrative, or at least rejecting it because I got into a Master's programme to be an Ontario certified teacher and I turned it down, simply because firstly, I knew I didn't want to work as an Ontario certified teacher, I was just gonna get the credential. But then I was like, Hmm, I think that's actually like, further participating in this idea that, you know, Eazy E's aren't qualified enough. And I need to have an OC t certification, but also like, you know, how do I how do I participate in like, EC E's are good enough and qualified enough without being like, oh, he sees no better or differently than in formal family care. Anyway, so I chose to work the early years sector, over and above working in a school in public education, at least, because not only did I absolutely fall in love with emergent curriculum, but also, throughout all of my, you know, whatever, 20 years of working with children, I was always drawn to the youngest children, I actively chose to work with children, usually under the age of six, sorry, I should say, working alongside not working with I worked alongside toddlers and infants. And that was just a dream come true. For me, I love being an AC. But even more, I love being part of a larger system that cares for families, and that cares for children, when society really has let children and families down in many ways. This probably isn't the podcast or the episode you might have thought it would be, I guess we just, you know, I'm asking more questions than I am providing any answers or any solid takeaway points. But that's part of the point of this podcast in particular. So I'm hoping that you, you know, left here with more questions, I hope you have maybe, you know, broken open or uprooted in some way that before you hadn't contemplated or, or you know, maybe you just needed that little prompt to kind of think differently and ask new questions yourself. And questions are so important. As educators, we asked meaningful questions to children all the time, but also, we engage as co learners, and we engage as researchers and critically thinking about things that are really uncomfortable, like, what our role is really accomplishing. And is it necessary if society was built differently if history was different, I'm just gonna say it, but like childcare and early learning isn't an inevitable sector, if there was more structural care or if there were more cultural practices that were formally recognised and supported to provide care for families and children. I guess I'm just like curious about how other adults play with children besides educators? How much how playful are babysitters? And how can we, again, like I'm even speaking in that dichotomy here. Play versus pedagogy. But, you know, if I'm actually trying to live out my values, in reality, playing pedagogy wouldn't be considered two different things. And I wouldn't even be saying things like informal care, because I would be recognising that all care is essential. If this episode has sparked some thoughts for you, or you feel like you want to reply or respond with another point of view, or perspective, or even a new idea you've had, I would love to hear from you. And of course, if you're ever interested in being a guest on this podcast, let me know and we can collab. Alright, just the disclaimer that at this time This podcast is not affiliated or associated with or authorised or endorsed by any organisation or individual other than myself and my future guests. There's views expressed in this episode are my own. Additionally, I accept full responsibility for any mistakes, inaccuracies, oversights, or admissions I've may have made in this episode, due to my own ignorance and privilege. I welcome feedback on these things and will rectify misunderstandings and or edit the episode where appropriate. If you're looking to give feedback or looking to just connect more, you can find me on Instagram at playful pedagogies I'm on Twitter at playful pod. You can also check out my website at playful pedagogies.ca and you can email me at ke at playful pedagogies.ca which is super exciting. Still waiting on my first email. You can be the one Alright, that's it. See you next time. Stay playful