Welcome to the playful podcast where we discuss lifelong learning and leisure by lingering at the intersection of recreation education and occupation. I'm your host, kim Barton, Welcome to the journey. I'm excited to play and learn along with you.
Welcome everybody to episode five of the playful podcast for those who have been following along. Um you might have noticed I took a couple of weeks of a break, um I had a lot of things to attend to in my life outside of this podcast, um and I think I'm ready to jump back in. Um so I'm kind of playing catch up with this episode because this is a bit of a reflection on an event that I attended um in September of 2021. Um and now it's uh getting to the end of November. So, um we're going back in time a little bit, so I can reflect on a conference that was held by the council of outdoor educators. Um and in this solo episode, I kind of just wander through some reflections I had during the conference and since the conference, particularly in response to um one of the keynote speakers Caroline and one of the workshop presenters, um and opening ceremony hosts Richard, um I put some of their information in my show notes if you're interested. So, in these wanderings, I kind of cover um themes related to this idea of the word belonging which is relevant as an ECE in Ontario. Um I also kind of reflect on the limits of the english language as I know it, especially this is kind of in conversation with kind of what Caroline shared at the conference, but also um in connection to what I've read in braiding sweetgrass. Um and then I take a deep dive into this obsession that I've had for a while um with spirals. So if this is any interest to you, stay tuned and I hope you have some fun along the way in this journey.
Okay, so I figured it was time for another pondering pathways chat with Kim. Well, I walk around my neighborhood and reflect, I'm currently walking right beside the speed river that goes pretty close to my house and then follows and then flows into downtown Guelph. Um I've probably talked about this already, but Wealth is also known as two rivers because our, well, there's an intersection of two rivers, speed river and the Eramosa. I thought it would be fitting on this walk outdoors to kind of reflect on my experience at a recent outdoor education conference. Um, so I've gone to, I think three now um, conferences with the council of outdoor educators of Ontario and I am truly obsessed with the experience that they um are able to facilitate at these conferences. I really kind of connect with Um not only the way that it's facilitated, but I really respect that um, at these conferences they prioritize um informal socializing and networking and they really provide a place for outdoor educators to learn from each other um especially because outdoor educators like ECEs don't always have the recognition that they deserve and are often fighting for um that recognition and just kind of like, um I guess actually there is a bit of a difference because outdoor educators are often fighting against administration kind of um to be able to implement what they're really hoping to achieve, whereas ECEs don't really have to do that for the most part, maybe depending on where people work. So the most recent conference that I just went to was um safely done during the pandemic and it was hosted at camp coaching where I I've never been there before, but it was a really great location. We had fantastic weather, so we're pretty lucky. So while I was at COEO, it had some pretty big realizations as per usual, and I figured instead of writing them all down, I mean, I wrote a bunch of them down in my journal, but no one's ever going to see that. I figured I could also share them through the podcast. Um and hopefully make these kind of realizations more accessible to other people, um spark some conversation or um like just keep building pathways for people to like collaborate and connect about their shared interests. So I want to be mindful in this reflection because a lot of the insights that I gleaned from the most recent COEO event were the result of conversations with two indigenous … um… individuals. I was just pausing because I wasn't sure if I could call them and to just educators, but I think I guess they're indigenous adult educators in some way, but I don't think either of them maybe identify as um working with Children outside of, I think Richard um is a father, so he was talking about his parenting role, but um Caroline didn't mention working alongside Children specifically. Um but I want to be mindful because they had both said at one point that um we have to be careful as folks who learn from and with indigenous folks, um that we're not appropriating the stories and that we're giving not only credit but asking permission before sharing. So I thought about this and I'm not sharing any personal stories. Um, and I'm focusing on I guess my story in these conversations and some of the takeaway points that I had um that I think are either coming common knowledge within um like indigenous ally ship spaces or common knowledge now within larger societal conversations, especially within this past year due to the kind of public um acknowledgment that's happened for the residential school system in Canada. Um, and um considering that yesterday was um National Day for truth and reconciliation in Canada in what is currently known as Canada. This is the first day. Um, so this recording is going to come to you a lot later than when I'm currently speaking right now. Um, but I'm sharing some of this just because of this intersection of the conversations and um this national day for truth and reconciliation. So the first thing I wanted to reflect on is this idea of the word belonging and I'm bringing this up because Caroline had raised this point very poignantly and um she kind of shared with us like um when folks are speaking about indigenous groups, oftentimes we I don't I don't know why this is, but we accidentally are intuitively say our indigenous people. And I've heard this multiple times really steer away from saying our indigenous people because that implies this colonial idea of of indigenous groups somehow belonging to um somebody else belonging to uh white people or um what is currently known as Canada, but I'm also bringing it up because when I was listening to Caroline kind of speak about this, I realized that like as pcs in Ontario, we used the Lord belonging very liberally and we use it to mean I think most of the time how folks feel that they belong to a group. Um Mhm. But I also think that we maybe aren't yet careful enough about the ways that we think of the possessions that belong to us or the ideas that belong to us. Um and how that idea of belonging can perpetuate the current kind of colonial structures and institutions. So like I don't know, I don't know if there's another word or a better word to use, but I am just bringing this up is something to keep thinking about what do we mean when we use the word belonging belonging to who and who is included in this idea of belonging. Um and Caroline also pointed out so eloquently that in many indigenous ways of knowing um there's a prominent idea of interdependence and reciprocal relationships, which I think is probably commonly known today as a very generic knowledge of indigenous worldviews. Um and I've reflected on this a lot. Well, I shouldn't say a lot because it's like very new to me in the grand scheme of time, but I've reflected on this um specifically because of the reading I did of braiding sweetgrass and the ways in which that dr wall camera does an excellent job at really provoking these images and these feelings around interconnectedness. Um and specifically interdependence and I have a little, a few instagram posts, kind of going into detail about my thoughts about that. So maybe I'll just link them in my show notes. Um but again, how does this, But this idea of belonging fit into this idea of being interdependent and interconnected with not just humans, but the more than human world as well. And yeah, to extend this idea one step further, I want to bring up what Caroline was talking about and what was written so well about in braiding sweetgrass, which is about this idea of english language and the limits of it, and if we're thinking about, you know, all of the beings that I'm in relationship with, I don't have good vocabulary to actually describe that. Um and a lot of the times, the ways that I am naming those, I'm in relationship with those names don't reflect the relationship that I have with that being or even relationships that that being is with beyond myself and Caroline brought this up, but like this is, you know, um yeah, okay. I think it's discussed in lots of spaces, at least the places that I'm um spending time in because um I've kind of my knowledge on this is kind of spiral ized right. Like I was introduced to it just sort of um a little bit here and there just through conversations. And then I read dr wall climbers chapter from braiding Sweetgrass on language and animusy and relationships. And I was like, wow. Um you know, even our english language is so like colonial. Um so if you haven't read that chapter I highly recommend and now I think I'm coming back in another cycle of this idea of language and its limits um to really think about some of the, just some of the common phrases that we use and the ways that we kind of, I guess like semantics of it. Like I'm not somebody who's I don't have like a good background knowledge in sort of discourse and talking about the meaning of things, but I'm trying and I'm growing so something that I'm really just beginning to notice that's kind of intersecting with other learning journeys I'm on is like the names that we have for um for like beings in the more than human world, so like plants and animals, um different types of soil, for example, um this is not my area of expertise, but um Caroline brought up this idea of like the name for poison ivy and a lot of people were nodding in the audience as she was saying this story, but this was all new to me. So what she said was like if we think about the name poison ivy, we think about it as being poisonous to humans because it gives us a skin inflammation if we get that oil on us. But she was saying that she actually likes to call and maybe I'm not actually supposed to share this. So if you are going to repeat this information, um I do suggest maybe reaching out to Caroline herself, but she said that she likes to call poison ivy protector ivy and that's because the way that it grows is when humans have disturbed a certain area in the forest and it grows there to then kind of keep the humans out and it protects that area that has been disturbed. And this was so new to me and I just couldn't stop thinking around about how like what a miss know where it is to call poison ivy poison ivy and to be perpetuating this idea that it's like dangerous and scary and sure it can be, but also what are, what's the relationship of poison ivy too, other beings other than just ourselves. And at COEO Richard who was speaking had many additional thoughts on this to add. So Caroline kind of prompted us to think more about other examples of this and Richard had a few to offer as well. I'm Richard really kind of solidified this idea of how english is so bad at describing things. Um and together they kind of painted this image of how like english language again just reflects the kind of hierarchies that exist in like Western ways of knowing. Um and how many indigenous cultures, there isn't that same hierarchy and that lack of hierarchy is represented through the language. So Caroline spoke about like a blade of grass being just as meaningful as like an apex predator. Um and actually there's this beautiful moment when we were listening and learning and chatting together and a bunch of geese flew overhead. Um and Caroline kind of like looked up and her eyes kind of widened and she slightly nodded and it was the look that you give somebody like an acquaintance that you pass every day on the street or like a, you know like a a barista that you've become familiar with. It was this like very familiar nod of like, hey how are you and you could see that in her eyes and then ah I don't know if it was the same, the same group of geese or if it was another one, but she paused in the conversation when they flew overhead and she just kind of said like hello safe travels. Um and it was just like so magical to see somebody acknowledge this very like this very typical interaction with geese but like really kind of pause and let it become something magical and acknowledge the relationship that we have with geese and also acknowledge that you know, they just just acknowledge the geese I think is like as for me, somebody who grew up in Canada and who is white, like I there's this understanding that geese are kind of annoying. Also kind of dangerous, don't you don't, you don't want to get too close, they might bite you. Um Anyway, okay, so back to like this idea of language, somebody in the audience, I shouldn't say audience. We were all sitting in a circle but like one of my fellow participants in this session brought up this idea of keystone species as an example of something just to talk about in terms of language, the english language, being able to describe it or not. And there seemed to be some competing perspectives here because on one hand, keystone species does convey that um that species has a profound impact on ecosystems and yet at the same time it doesn't kind of truly convey like what our relationships are with this species as humans. And like it doesn't really indicate to us how to interact maybe other than like, oh, this is a really important species and don't disturb it. However, we kind of should be doing that with everything like keystone species or not, they all matter right. Um and so someone else kind of remember someone else sharing. It's kind of an alternative way of saying something like apex predator that does suggest a hierarchy. But then I think what we kind of realized as that as that was being shared was that, well, it does indicate a hierarchy in some ways because now we're saying, you know, protect the keystone species, but it's okay if another species is collateral damage. Um and so I thought about this for a long time and this idea of like, you know, how does this language of keystone species work for us as humans. Um and when I realized I realized this right before Caroline said it. So I feel like I was like when I talk about things being like spiralized knowledge, I feel like this was a moment of deepening the spiral or like widening it because when I thought about the term keystone species, I was like, oh, that really helps me on a cognitive level, understand the what of the species. Um and kind of like who potentially might be in relationship, sorry, I keep saying it who the species might be in relationship with. However it doesn't speak to my heart. It doesn't speak to me on a spiritual level about how I engage with this species, how this species, So like for example, say a keystone species being like a beaver. If I call a beaver a beaver, it still doesn't tell me information about it. And if I call a beaver a keystone species that still doesn't give me much more information on a spiritual level. But it does tell my head some kind of further information about it. So I guess I don't really know how to end this off. Other than saying like are there other ways that we can think about and conceptualize our relationships with species that speak more to our heart and not just to our minds. Um and what implications might this have on things like climate change. Okay, so one other thing I want to briefly reflect upon um is this idea of spirals. I'm really thinking about how we go through cycles again and again and again. And I'm really curious like when we go through cycles, are they patterns that repeats? Or are they more of like a a cyclone shape or a tornado shaped like is there some deepening or widening? Like I had kind of said so far in this reflection? I love like when serendipity plays its role? Um slash also cognitive bias plays its role, but because I've been thinking about um spirals a lot over the past, I mean I've been thinking about them maybe for um probably since my training in 2019 because I remember being introduced to Susan Stacy's chapter on emergent curriculum and how she has this kind of beautiful image of it's kind of a spiral but also not really um and she talks about the different stages of of kind of planning for emerging curriculum, starting with like sort of observations. Um and she ends on this sort of like letting go note and saying like the last bit is just seeing where it goes and then I think my journey with spirals um on a personal level, I think it was something I was exploring because I noticed these kind of cycles of cycles of patterns in my life and started thinking about what if these cycles are actually um spirals instead, and what if they're layered, what if they're three dimensional and what if there's actually much more movement than I previously thought, So instead of being, you know, kind of this exact same experience over time. So for example, like this going through season, so each year we Have the same four seasons and in some ways it feels like a repetition. But if I imagine these experiences in a spiral, it's actually that my experience of the seasons is growing deeper and more intimate and as I grow over older, no, winter is the same, right? Like I'm when you're older, the world has changed in a year. Um and so I think about how it can maybe be represented in a spiral. So all that to say, I'd already been thinking about spirals and I had already sort of drawn out, I wrote myself a poem that was in the shape of a spiral. Yeah, literally it was very meta because it was talking about things being like spiral ized. And then Richard had this like incredible moment where he said something about spirals as well. And I feel like he was speaking like the exact same language as me because he was saying like, I think I tried to write down what he'd said. Um but it was something like we go through cycles of time. People have been here before. That's just life. That's when he was speaking about the way that everything is connected. Everything is a circle or a cycle. Um and I just really connected with that and it kind of brings me back to what I was saying earlier about everything being interdependent and interconnected. And um I think that one of my wondering throughout this podcast is how adults do engage in play and how they can engage in play and spiral. Izing, understanding the ways in which adult interests are spiral ist helps me kind of have a framework to understand how adults are engaged in their hobbies like cyclically or seasonally, but also how our knowledge and interest deepen and expand with time. And this is just one example of the ways that I'm curious about spirals, but I think I would love to see or to know or to document um the way that people cycle through there like interests or visions or hobbies or whatever. So I guess part of the reason I was sharing all all my messy thoughts about spirals is because I kind of anticipate that this podcast will also spiral and I'm trying to give myself grace because I feel this pressure to have all my episodes like organized um and like um almost like segregated to have this one. Talk about whatever Episode three, Talk about playing episode for talk about glorified babysitting and have it all nicely chunked. But what I'm thinking about doing is just kind of unfolding into the process of spiral ist conversations and how I might, There might be three or four episodes that focus on one thing and then it might evolve into something else. And like if you follow this podcast over time, there's going to be certainly themes that come up again and again, but that might be described with more nuance or variation over time. Um and I think that that's also just something as learners as just like humans in this life as we're learning from other people. That's something that we can really pick up on and kind of extend our empathy to because a lot of professionals and authors or musicians probably go through these same kind of spirals of being interested in something and exploring it deeply and then moving on, but also coming back. Um, and so I had written in this poem to myself that something like we've been here before, but we're not yet there. And it's this idea of like constantly becoming, as my colleague says, we're always becoming, we're always somewhere and nowhere at the same time, we're always moving and growing, but also, um, but also being the same at the same time. So anyway, those are my messy thoughts for the day and reflections from the council of outdoor educators, fall conference.
Thanks so much for listening everybody to my ramblings as I process some of what I've been thinking about since attending this conference. I just wanted to do my sort of traditional spiel if you've been listening to the podcast, I'm sure you know this, but at this time this podcast is not affiliated or associated with authorized or endorsed by any organization or individual. Um, this also pertains to COEO they are just my personal reflections on the um conference. So the views expressed here are my own. In addition I accept full responsibility for any mistakes inaccuracies, emissions, or oversights made in this episode, particularly with regards to some of my interpretations of what Carolyn and Richard shared. Um, and any inaccuracies inaccuracies are likely due to my own ignorance and privilege. So I do welcome feedback on uh these things. Um, and I'll aim to rectify some of these misunderstandings um feel free if you do have feedback to reach out to me on instagram. Um or if you just like to chat in general. My handle is at playful pedagogies I'm also on twitter at playful pedagogies um and you can find me um on the internet on my website at playfulpedagogies.ca. Feel free. Also to send me an email kem@playfulpedagogies.ca Thanks so much for listening. Stay playful.
